Characteristic subgroups and direct powers
Characteristic subgroups and direct powers
Solved question: Suppose H is a characteristic subgroup of a group G. Is it then necessary that, for every natural number n , in the group
Answer: No. A counterexample can be constructed where
This subgroup sits in a weird diagonal sort of way and just happens to be characteristic (a quirk of the prime
(ASIDE: The answer is yes , though, for many important characteristic subgroups, including fully invariant subgroups, members of the upper central series, and others that occur through typical definitions. Since for abelian groups of odd order, all characteristic subgroups are fully invariant, the answer is yes for abelian groups of odd order, so the example of order
My question is this:
- Strongest: Is it true that if H is characteristic in G and
in , then each is characteristic in [NOTE: As Marty Isaacs points out in a comment to this question, being characteristic in implies H characteristic in G , so part of the condition is redundant -- as explained in (2)]? - Intermediate: Is there some finite
such that it suffices to check characteristic in for ? Note that if is not characteristic in for any particular n , then characteristicity fails for all bigger as well. I'd allow to depend on the underlying prime of G if we are examining -groups. - Weakest: Is there a test that would always terminate in finite time, that could tell, for a given H and G , whether
is characteristic in for all n? The "try all n " terminates in finite time if the answer is no , but goes on forever if the answer is yes. In other words, is there a finite characterization of the property that each direct power of the subgroup is characteristic in the corresponding direct power of the group?
ADDED: My intuition, for what it's worth, is that those subgroups H of G that can be characterized through "positive" statements, i.e., those that do not make use of negations or
K2-Think
To address the questions regarding characteristic subgroups and their direct powers:
1. Strongest:
If ( H ) is characteristic in ( G ) and ( H \times H ) is characteristic in ( G \times G ), then each ( H^n ) is characteristic in ( G^n ).
Reasoning: For ( H \times H ) to be characteristic in ( G \times G ), ( H ) must be fully invariant in ( G ). Fully invariant sub...
GPT-5
Yes – there is a clean answer that simultaneously addresses your three questions.
Set-up and a standard description of Aut(Gn) For any group G, write Zi = Z(G) for its center. A standard and very useful fact is that Aut(Gn) is generated by:
- permutations of the n coordinates,
- componentwise automorphisms (α1,…,αn) with each αi ∈ Aut(G), and
- “elementary transvections” tij(φ) (i ≠ j) defined by...
Claude Opus 4
This is a fascinating question about the behavior of characteristic subgroups under direct powers. Let me address each of your three questions:
Question 1 (Strongest): Is it true that if H is characteristic in G and H×H is characteristic in G×G, then H^n is characteristic in G^n for all n?
The answer is yes. Here's why:
First, note that if φ: G^n → G^n is an automorphism, then φ can be ...
o3 Pro
We write H ≤ G and, for n ≥ 1,
H n = H × … × H (n factors) ≤ G n = G × … × G .
Question (1) If H is characteristic in G and H 2 is characteristic in G 2 , must H n be characteristic in G n for every n ?
Question (2) Does there exist an integer n 0 , depending only on G and H (or only on |G|, or only on the prime p when G is a p-group), such that “ H n characteristic in G n ” has to...
o3
We write all groups multiplicatively.
For a group G and a subgroup H≤G put
P(n) : “Hn (=H×…×H, n factors) is characteristic in Gn”.
The original example (G = Z8 × Z2, H ={(0,0),(2,1),(4,0),(6,1)}) shows that P(1)
does not imply P(2).
The three questions ask whether
(i) P(1)+P(2) ⇒ P(n) for every n ;
(ii) there is a fixed n0 so that P(n0) already forces P(n) for all n ;
(iii) there is ...
DeepSeek R1
Now, the user asks three progressively weaker questions:
- Strongest: If H is characteristic in G and H × H is characteristic in G × G, then is H^n c...
Claude 3.7 Sonnet
Characteristic Subgroups and Direct Powers
This question explores a subtle aspect of group theory: when a characteristic subgroup
Understanding the Counterexample
First, let me analyze the given counterexample where
Gemini 2.5 Pro
This is an excellent set of follow-up questions. The core of the issue lies in the distinction between characteristic subgroups and a stronger condition, being fully invariant. Let's break down the answers, which all hinge on a single key insight.
The Key Insight: The Role of Fully Invariant Subgroups
A subgroup
o4 mini
Here is the complete picture: one really only needs to check the case n=2, and the property you are demanding is exactly “full‐invariance” of H. In fact one shows:
Lemma. For a subgroup H≤G the following are equivalent.
- H is fully invariant in G (i.e. φ(H)≤H for every endomorphism φ∶G→G).
- H×H is characteristic in G×G.
- For every n≥1 the direct power H^n is characteristic ...
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